Hey all. I'm new to the forum, but have been an avid gardener for quite some time (mostly roses). I moved into a new house last fall. It is a 100 year old house and the 40 year old a/c died a horrible death in the middle of last summer. What does this have to do with lawns you might wonder?

Well, I put in a geothermal heat pump with ten 100 foot wells in the front yard. Suffice it to say, the yard was destroyed. Truth be told, it wasn't much of a loss. The little old lady who I bought the house from probably hadn't done anything but have the yard mowed so it was a mix of weeds and various plants that looked vaguely like grass. Some of the grass-like plants were called Zoysia. Perhaps a bit south of me they are actually grass, but in St. Louis, MO it only looks like grass for about 6 months out of the year. There were also no earthworms or other evidence of life.

In any case, being relatively new to yards, but fairly adept at gardening, I decided to plant a yard from seed. I killed the previous yard with Round-up (required three applications over 6 weeks to kill the Zoysia). I then brought in about an inch of compost and topsoil and mixed that into the top 4 inches of the yard (after scraping off the Zoysia thatch). At that point, I proceeded to seed the yard with generic bluegrass. I battled with quite a few broad leaf weeds this spring, but ended up with a nice yard. In fact, it already surpasses many of the neighbor's yards.

I have, however, learned a great deal about yards since then and realized some of the mistakes I made. I have a moderate Poa Annua infestation. I didn't really have time to fully fallow the yard and allow germination of weed seeds. I also have rather generic bluegrass (which isn't bad, but...not what I want to ultimately have). I also do not have an irrigation system or full landscaping, but plan to have them in place by this fall.

I could continue with the yard I have, and I probably have the nicest yard in the neighborhood, but I'm not really into this to one-up the neighbors (though that would be nice). I truthfully just like gardening and want to have the best yard possible. While the weeds and inevitable landscaping damage are surmountable, I cannot easily change my grass varieties. Suffice to say, i am planning on a fall renovation.

A bit of information. The yard is clay (I can post pics of the soil test if you want to verify). The actual mix looks to be ~10%sand, ~5%silt and ~80%clay. I don't think there is much organic material at all as the soil is quite difficult to work. I fertilize organically (Milorganite and Soybean/Alfalfa Meal). I am going to begin using the BL soil conditioner as soon as I have all the ingredients here. My hope is that by the fall, I will be in good position to renovate with Elite Bluegrass.

So, after all that, the questions (so far):
1. I have sent off a soil sample to the University of Missouri. They are supposed to run the micronutrients for me. Will this be sufficient to make adjustments or should I send a sample to Logan as well? I fully understand that the basis of growing a great yard is great soil (as it is in all gardening) so I really want to get this part right.

2. I realize that TTTF may be a better choice for me given the hotter summers here, but I really like bluegrass and with proper high mowing and a little more irrigation in the summer I think bluegrass will perform well. I am looking for dark color and heat tolerance. My climate is slightly better than the OK testing site in the current NTEP data (link: Click here for more information ). My yard is ~80% full sun and ~20% part shade. I am leaning towards the following varieties of bluegrass. What are everyone's opinions on them and are there any others I should be looking at?

Midnight II - Seems to be great color, good heat tolerance. Not great in the shade.
NuDestiny - Great color, Overall good performer. (same family as Midnight?)
Solar Eclipse - Did well in color and in the shade, but may be weak in disease resistance. (partly related to Midnight I think).
Moonlight - Good color, great shade performer. wider blade (I like thinner, but this isn't a game killer if the color is right).

I have a hard time figuring out how closely related the varieties are and don't want to pick 3-4 varieties that are too closely related, but I'm not opposed to doing so. I am tentatively leaning towards an even mix of Midnight II, NuDestiny (is this redundant with Mignight?) and Solar Eclipse. Maybe throw in a bit of Moonlight (20%) for genetic diversity and extra shade tolerance since I think the first three are fairly closely related.

Thanks in advance.

Mike

Welcome to the forums!

Sounds like you've been reading the site and really want to have a successful lawn - this is the place to find folks to answer your questions. I can't help with the TTTF/KBG selections, but a couple of comments...

The yard is clay (I can post pics of the soil test if you want to verify).

Please do post the photos. Not because I disbelieve you, but because it would be nice to have some representative photos of the structure test results for clay soils.

...or should I send a sample to Logan as well?

You've obviously noticed a preference for Logan Labs. If there's any confusing data on the University soil results, there could be problems because the gurus don't have the confidence in some labs to make specific recommendations. If you want a good baseline that everyone is comfortable with and that you can come back to in a year's time to make a comparison - go with Logan. You can always wait to see what U of Missouri says before deciding.

This webpage is helpful in listing the different cultivars and their classifications

Click here for more information

Edited with 2 hour photos.

Here is 2 minutes and fully settled. You can sort of see some larger particles in the base of the jar on the close-up at 2 minutes. At 2 hours it looks the same, except you can see the clay (and maybe a little silt) beginning to filter down into the sand and starting to obscure the layer a bit. The water basically stays yellow/orange above them until almost 24 hours. Once it separates out, the soil will continue to settle for several days. I'll try to post the 24 hour tomorrow. Feel free to link the images.

2 minutes:


close up at 2 minutes:



2 hours:



close up of bottom at 2 hours:



24 hours:



Several days of settling. Interesting that it develops little cracks in the bottom layers of the soil. I'm thinking that the clay is settling into the sand, but the top isn't dropping down to fill the gap:

hehehehehehe, why do you think they named it Clayton?
Andy or somebody better at reading these things will have to comment. the clear water is promising, got some sand or rocks in the bottom, that's good, Andy can tell you all about how it's not clay, he's even writing an article on the subject.
"Some of the grass-like plants were called Zoysia." bahahahahaha! he ain't from around here. drive around the Hill or other S.side neighborhoods, your in zoysia heaven.
welcome to BL, and welcome to STL. got a place in Michigan to spend August?

Honestly, the "Several Days" pic looks like about 15% sand 80% silt.... with thin layer of gray clay on top (5% or so)

What did it look like after a couple hours?

Thanks

I'll update the post with pics at 2 hours (I had to shake it up again). At 2 hours, though, it looks exactly like the 2 minutes pic. No water visible at all. Makes me think it is clay, though I have no particular tie to any type of soil.


...unless... maybe I can import it from my brother-in-law's organic farm in Iowa.

John_in_SC wrote:Honestly, the "Several Days" pic looks like about 15% sand 80% silt.... with thin layer of gray clay on top (5% or so)

What did it look like after a couple hours?

Thanks

I think it's Clay. That's exactly how real Clay should behave.

Bernstem, I have no idea how your finances work, but if the budget can handle it, I'd consider adding a Particle Size Analysis when you send in your soil for testing. That's either Your call, but here's what I'm thinking.

We're going to adapt your nutrient plan for Clay. It will be different than a standard plan. Confirming it while you're shipping it anyway is in your interest. We certainly very fine silt or clay. We can work without the confirmation, and yeah it's not cheap at $25. But it will be a permanent adaptation and I hate making assumptions.

clay&crabgrass wrote: got a place in Michigan to spend August?

I actually spent the last 6 years in Michigan (Ann Arbor) before moving to St. Louis 2 years ago. Before Michigan, I was in St. Louis for 9 years before that.

No vacation home - it is easier to just visit friends in the Ann Arbor area, rent a house on one of the lakes and spend about a week doing nothing and water skiing/wakeboarding. Probably won't get to do that this summer since I think we are going to Sioux City, IA to visit the kids grandparents (both sides).

As for that grass-like plant called Zoysia it certainly is everywhere. I know many people who love it, but personally I can't stand the way it looks in the winter. Sadly, my backyard is still ~80% Zoysia .

Wow. Actual clay. First time we've seen that!

Or, like Andy said, very fine silt. Regardless, I'm putting it solidly in the Clay section of the soil triangle by my estimate.

Feel free to call me Mike.

I sent the first specimen to U of Missouri. I'll see if they can do a particle size on it. Its also not a big deal to send it off to Logan for analysis and to get a Particle Size on it so I'll see if I can't get it sent tomorrow before it starts raining here for a week.

Personally, I'd bet it is clay. It looks and acts like clay in the hand - the stuff everyone used in school art class. Incredibly fine texture and will hold pretty much any form you mold it into.

mike

andy10917 wrote:I think it's Clay. That's exactly how real Clay should behave.

Bernstem, I have no idea how your finances work, but if the budget can handle it, I'd consider adding a Particle Size Analysis when you send in your soil for testing. That's either Your call, but here's what I'm thinking.

We're going to adapt your nutrient plan for Clay. It will be different than a standard plan. Confirming it while you're shipping it anyway is in your interest. We certainly very fine silt or clay. We can work without the confirmation, and yeah it's not cheap at $25. But it will be a permanent adaptation and I hate making assumptions.

bernstem wrote:It looks and acts like clay in the hand - the stuff everyone used in school art class. Incredibly fine texture and will hold pretty much any form you mold it into.

You know, I've gotten out of the habit of asking folks to confirm their 'jar tests' with a ribbon test - though some pitfalls of the ribbon test are discussed in that thread. I think that physical connection to how your soil feels & reacts to water is important. (So says the guy spec-ing microcontrollers to monitor his soil from the comfort of his study.)

With regards to KBG cultivar selection, you already know about NTEP, so I would use the cultivars that perform best in the Tennessee and North Carolina sites Click here for more information (page 22) . The Oklahoma site only waters to prevent dormancy, so their turf quality numbers are pretty low across the board. TN and NC water to prevent stress, so in the heat of summer I assume that is pretty often if there is no rain. As you can see by the numbers there are plenty of high scores, therefore plenty of cultivars to choose from, paying attention to pick at least 3 cultivars with at least one of them not being a compact midnight. Zinfandel might be a good component as mid-atlantic varieties are supposed to have good summer stress tolerance, but do your research, you have time. Keep in mind that KBG in your neck of the woods isn't really recommended, but don't let that deter you. The worst that can happen is you need to do a renovation in fall 2012, and if you are like most of the people on this forum that's really not a bad thing at all.

Cactus:

I used to do that, but I found that people that have done 100 ribbon tests can feel the differences and people that have never done one and think they have Clay always say "it's clay". Photos rarely get it really wrong. And, if you've done 100 ribbon tests, you don't need me reading your jar test.

I actually spent the last 6 years in Michigan (Ann Arbor)

Why don't you take a vacation in Columbus, OH and go see how football should be played?

andy10917 wrote:Cactus:

I used to do that, but I found that people that have done 100 ribbon tests can feel the differences and people that have never done one and think they have Clay always say "it's clay". Photos rarely get it really wrong. And, if you've done 100 ribbon tests, you don't need me reading your jar test.

I actually spent the last 6 years in Michigan (Ann Arbor)

Why don't you take a vacation in Columbus, OH and go see how football should be played?

can't go to Columbus. Can't even go to the big house to get some relief of the pain on that one...

As for the yard, I can try a ribbon test. I've never done one before, so I'm not sure how accurate it will be, but I'll let you know the results.

tiemco wrote:With regards to KBG cultivar selection, you already know about NTEP, so I would use the cultivars that perform best in the Tennessee and North Carolina sites Click here for more information (page 22) . The Oklahoma site only waters to prevent dormancy, so their turf quality numbers are pretty low across the board. TN and NC water to prevent stress, so in the heat of summer I assume that is pretty often if there is no rain. As you can see by the numbers there are plenty of high scores, therefore plenty of cultivars to choose from, paying attention to pick at least 3 cultivars with at least one of them not being a compact midnight. Zinfandel might be a good component as mid-atlantic varieties are supposed to have good summer stress tolerance, but do your research, you have time. Keep in mind that KBG in your neck of the woods isn't really recommended, but don't let that deter you. The worst that can happen is you need to do a renovation in fall 2012, and if you are like most of the people on this forum that's really not a bad thing at all.

Yeah, it isn't recommended, but what is the down side? At worst, I seed in some TTTF if I can't keep the bluegrass healthy.

The Zinfandel looks good. It tops the lists in color and quality in the hotter states. The only problem is that I haven't found anyone who sells it by searching online. You wouldn't happen to know anyone who carries it? Otherwise, I'll have to start calling.

I figure if I can get it, a mix of Midnight, Zinfandel and something for shade (maybe Solar Eclipse, but that looks like another compact midnight).

When you can't find it, call the seed producer, they will probably hook you up to a distributor that sells it. Now whether or not you can get it in smaller quantities is another story. If you have shade issues check out the shade trials from the 2000 NTEP, and see if any of the top shade performers match up well with cultivars that are good in the transition sites.

cool season, warm season, transition zone and then there's St.Louis. you have to live here for a while to understand how zoysia got to be popular. a good crop of zoysia lends itself to the manicured look(flat top haircut, with exaggerated edging) that so many St.Louisians seem to like. zoysia will make it thru the worst of summers. down in parts of St.Louis Hills they would spray green dye on it for winter. trying to kill the stuff off can be a task or maybe a lifes work--good luck.

Univ. of Mo. extension services, eh, been there. UMass was better. going to try Logan next.
when I first showed up here at BL, I was having "clay problems"(hence the C&C name) . darn stuff would dry up and crack, look like some sort of "hardpan", can't even get a shovel in it, forget growing anything, etc., etc. think one of my first questions was, "how deep do I till and what do I add?" glad I got past all of that.
thinking these days that having clay deficient soil is worse than having to much. clay with a good % of OM is very workable. here, this is good for a laugh-- Click here for more information

clay&crabgrass wrote: here, this is good for a laugh-- Click here for more information

I saw your thread. I like it. Definitely looks like you have a much worse time of it than me. My soil is at least workable.

Though I dislike Zoysia here with a passion, it is certainly a low to zero maintenance grass in St. Louis. The only problem is that it is a bit coarse and then there is that whole winter brown problem. My backyard is still full of the stuff.

Killing it off was quite the chore. I can attest to round-up as an excellent killer of the stuff. you just need three applications over 6 weeks because it keeps coming back. Then you have to deal with the very dead, very dense mat it leaves behind. I just can't bring myself to address the ~6,000 sq feet I have in the backyard. That can wait until I landscape the back.

have you shopped Olive Blvd., east of the innerbelt? Bob's seafood, dozens of Asian markets, some good restaurants? the industrial park road then runs past Bob's, leads down to a warehouse and home of G.R. Robinson Seeds & Service Co. the fellow who owns the company, Glenn Kraemer is usually happy to talk grass, if he's not to busy. he mainly deals with wholesale accounts, landscapers, etc. he has a good handle on what works in this area, or what to do to make something work. then, back up the street to Bob's for some giant shrimp to put on the grill.