I have an area at the bottom of the slope in my front yard that is close to a stand of native Eastern Firs that are among the southernmost native Eastern Firs in the US. While they are a major headache for trying to maintain a lawn/front yard, I can't bring myself to destroy something that is that special.

I have struggled with "what to do" for years. My wife is even more dedicated to them than I am.

To further complicate the situation, this year I determined that I have a serious patch of clay in the same area that is made up of eroded puddingstone. I knew that needed to be corrected early in 2011.

I came to the conclusion that either the trees have to go, or the lawn has to go in that area. I am the lawn person, and my wife is the bedding person in this one-acre-plus property. She protested that she can't weed any more gardens that I build (I added another hosta/fern garden this year).

So, finally it came to a head - I needed to start one plan or another for 2011 planning.

I spent two weeks slowly showing some crazy-cool new hostas to the wife. She got interested.

So, when I proposed the conversion of about 2,500 square feet of front-yard to be another 200 or so hostas, the wife went along with the plan. That will lower the front-yard square footage from 14,000 to 11,500 (which is down from 20,000 a few years ago).

Now I just need to figure out how to remove that clay-soil out of there, and replace it with homebrew hosta soil.

But a win is a win. And the wife is on-board!

Anyone with ideas about how to deal with the mechanics of that amount of soil replacement is welcome to comment and advise.

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instead of mining the clay, how about just working with it? dig a hole, put in the "garden soil", plant the hosta, water, fertilize, etc. over here at the radish farm, I've come to think that clay is much more forgiving than you'd think, just wants some water, some OM and a little love. good mix of clay and compost might be just the ticket for Hostas. good luck.

(the daikon was fun for the first try at claybusting, have a few areas that I think I'll bring in the big guns--horse radish.

I love the stuff and I know a guy in Chicago that will take any leftovers, maybe trade for vodka.)

My Dad raised horseradish. Impossible to kill - worse than the Mint family. It spreads and spreads and spreads.

YES! like to start a yard of crazy, really invasive plants that would eventually take over the neighborhood and keep going long after I'm gone, MuHahahahahahaha!! currently have a 2 acre, unmaintained hillside field behind our property, appreciate any ideas. neighbor to the north needs to be covered in vines, possibly carnivorous plants.

clay&crabgrass wrote:YES! like to start a yard of crazy, really invasive plants that would eventually take over the neighborhood and keep going long after I'm gone, MuHahahahahahaha!! currently have a 2 acre, unmaintained hillside field behind our property, appreciate any ideas. neighbor to the north needs to be covered in vines, possibly carnivorous plants.

Yellow archangel. Globe thistle. Vinca. English ivy. Catmint. Crown vetch.

You have your ideas, now go and sow!

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see, that's what we're talkin' about.

have vinca and ivy, catmint is same as catnip(have plenty of that for the neighborhood cats to get high on), I tried Crown Vetch and it just didn't work, which is funny the damn Highway Dept. has it all over the place, instead of seed, maybe I'll borrow some.

I've had yellow archangel and like it, but it does require control unless you just want it to take over. Crown vetch fail? Yeah, our highways are covered in the stuff around here, and it's considered invasive.

Anybody beyond C&C (thanks, C&C !!) have any ideas about the mechanics of dealing with 2,500 sq ft of soil replacement? I like the "holes filled with good soil" approach and it is my incremental approach, but this is probably the one-and-only shot at direct soil replacement if I take it.

And no, I'm not going to plant invasive junk down there. The almighty judge of new gardens (hereafter referred to as "spouse") would never let me hear the end of it.

Mine? Do nothing. There's not a thing wrong with a clay soil. Mulch heavily to encourage worms and keep it mulched, and let them work the decaying organic material into the ground for you. In a few years, solid clay turns to a fantastic soil.

Maybe use the BL Soil Conditioner if you want to break up the clay and let some oxygen and water in.

Yeah, I'm by no means trying to convince anyone that I'm anything unique. This stuff is ugly. Picture a "dry clay" permeated by 50% gravel (puddingstone is sedimentary conglomerate). Strangely almost hydrophobic.

Permeated by? Inquiring minds want to know!

Picture a sedimentary rock of granite gravel glued together with a red clay that has mechanically broken-down and eroded into a dry clay with tons of granite pebbles and 1/4" sedimentary red gravel. Hide it under an inch of topsoil. That's what I'm looking at.

Battle with your clay/rock stuff.....

Step 1.
Cover with 3" of mulch
Step 2.
Neatly stack fire wood 4' deep, covering the entire area
Step 3.
Ignore for the rest of your tenure at that property

Or.. Plant some low growing junipers....

The process is the same... Cover it with something and then Ignore...

Thanks

John

Maybe if you were planting a lawn, you would bring in a new layer of topsoil and make it deep enough for some roots to thrive in. Adjust your irrigation system accordingly. If you're lucky maybe get some strong grass plants to burrow themselves into the deeper, rockier, clay.

This isn't going to be lawn though, so I think in this situation (puddington) your only sensible choice would be to amend the holes at planting time. Add a good layer of compost over the entire area before you put another layer of mulch on top of that. Make your holes ridiculously wide and deep when you plant your hostas. Put your hostas in with a nice topsoil/compost/peat?/native soil mixture and let them go to town. Sure they'll tend to put most of their roots in the amended soil -- they'll live. If the holes are big enough, they may never know the difference. In time, some of the roots will explore beyond the amended holes. In the meantime, continue to work on improving the entire area of soil. BL soil conditioner, compost, OM, etc. you know the drill.

200 hostas? How would a power auger work on the puddington?

Is it possible to make raised beds? I just dig out a trench around the perimeter, and mound up the good soil several inches thick to grow the plants in.

Here's a link to what Puddingstone looks like: Schunemunk Puddingstone. What I have is the eroded rubble of this sandstone/clay sedimentary rock that is in the last picture at the right.

I may use a power auger, although the roots of the Eastern Firs may make that tough.

Burying this in tons of OM for the long-haul is a no-brainer, but the hosta will have to survive/thrive for long enough on their own to let the OM do it's thing.

Raised beds won't work, as this area is also the root area of the Eastern Firs, and burying the roots would kill them.

Andy,
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have to agree it looks like big fun.

I used one of those when I expanded the parking area back in 2001. Unfortunately, as David always warns, the reworked backyard wound up uneven and lumpy. But if I decide to do a wholesale soil replacement, it's on the list.

price out the cost of the excavator rental, dump truck rental, one week cruise ship ticket for wife, cost of dumping clay, cost of replacement designer loam, beer and pizza for the slaves--eh, ya get a number together and decide if it's doable.
I'm not nearly brave or daring enough for that, I'd just go with putting the hostas into improved existing, see how it goes.

Replacement would be nice, but can you move out enough soil from that area without damaging the roots of your Firs? Hard to get a feel without a picture of the area. If you can't, then I think you are stuck with slow soil amendment and a large planting bed of hostas in small patches of improved soil.