Howdy!

I stumbled across this website a couple weeks ago and glad I did. Now I have some general questions about organic lawn care and what to expect. I have about 2000 sq ft of St Augustine with about 200 sq ft of Bermuda in the area between the sidewalk and street. I thoroughly enjoy taking care of my lawn and being outside and am willing to put in a lot of time and effort (but not money) for the best lawn on my street (baby steps, then I'll go for best in the neighborhood).

I have read a lot of posts, the FAQ and all the articles on this website and others so I hope I'm not asking for something that is covered in the FAQ and articles section.

Watering Question: Is the watering recommendation of 1" per week standard throughout the year or does that vary based on the weather conditions? Right now I feel like I can go more than 1 week without watering and the grass still looks green and healthy. Should I go longer than a week without watering if the grass seems to be fine?

Expectations: What can I expect in the first year of using organics if I follow watering and mowing suggestions? Will my grass be green and thick? More or less weeds (right now I have none in my St.Aug)?

Before I found this website I had ordered a soil test from the Click here for more information then I also sent one to UMass last week. I'm still waiting on the results from both. Is anybody familiar with Texas Plant and Soil Lab?

Here is what I've done so far:
March 2nd I applied 40# of Alfalfa pellets
March 6th sprayed Horticultural molasses (maybe 10oz, can't remember)
March 16th I applied 30# of Soybean meal
April 2nd I sprayed compost tea (my homemade brew)
May 1st I applied 10# of alfalfa and 20# of Soybean meal (It was the remainder of my 50# bags) then sprayed 12 oz of the Horticultural molasses.

Any thoughts on what I've done so far or suggestions going forward?

Is the Horticultural molasses better, worse or indifferent than backstrap molasses?

I'm sure I'll be back later with more questions.
Thanks in advance for any criticism.
jm

Welcome JM!

Are those #s totals or per 1000sq ft? I'm thinking it's total, but either way, from my experience you would see some impact already. I'll let the experts chime in but that is a lot of molasses (especially if per K) and that might be binding some of your nitrogen.

I was in a similar boat to you last year. Went organic with a lawn in decent shape. I saw the impact of the feedings right away but it wasn't till I began to address deficiencies per my soil sample that I saw the biggest change. This spring is 10 fold better and i can really tell in density and the color of the soil when I plugged for my soil test this year.

Stick with it...you've already done quite a lot for this year! Pics?

Welcome.

jcmdallas wrote:Before I found this website I had ordered a soil test from the Click here for more information then I also sent one to UMass last week. I'm still waiting on the results from both. Is anybody familiar with Texas Plant and Soil Lab?

I'd be interested to see your UMass results compared to your TPSL results.

I did a side-by-side comparison last year (sent multiple tests to multiple labs, including TPSL), but I can't see justifying the cost of the TPSL testing for most homeowners. I might use them for range or crop management, but not for turf. My most recent experience (did some other testing about 4 years ago) with them was also right after the founder of the company had died, so that probably contributed to the unresponsiveness and lack of explanations I got at the time. I know David promotes their lab, and I think he's said that they've improved their game lately.

Patrick
Houston, Tx

I don't know the feeding requirements of St. Aug, but do know that Bermuda likes about a pound of nitrogen a month (or equivalent) through the growing season. That works out to about 15 pounds of soybean meal per thousand square feet per month on the Bermuda, at least.

Expectations: If the grass is already thick and not allowing weeds, you can expect that to continue. Soil changes and whatnot take a while, but most of the lawns I've taken over (like the Vandals sacked Rome) tend to show changes within three months, becoming lusher, denser, and greener.

Horticultural molasses (resisting the impulse to pull out the Dorothy Parker quote)...is just like normal molasses but doesn't have human consumption quality control. I'm betting it's blackstrap as a base, but could be wrong. Either/or, I'd call it about the same, all things considered.

Was that ten ounces per thousand square feet or ten ounces total (and over what square footage?) If the former, you might notice some loss of green color temporarily as all the sugars lock up the nitrogen in the soil. You'll get it back.

Most of your other questions will need to be answered by somebody who knows St. Aug or Bermuda better than I do...

DUDE! When you go after something, you go all the way! Good for you!!

I am familiar with TPSL. I like them a lot. It will be interesting to compare and contrast with UMASS. Did you tell TPSL that you wanted organic recommendations? They will have lots of choices...at least they used to. They redid their business after the founder died last year, so I'm not sure what you get now.

Watering 1 inch is not necessarily a 'per week' recommendation. You should be reading '1 inch each time,' or words to that effect. Whether you water monthly, weekly, or in between, you should water 1 inch all at once. The problem is with people who think 1 inch per week is good so they water 1/7 inch every day. That is not good. If you grass does not look dry after a week, then you can stretch it out. I water monthly in cool weather and only rack it up to once per week in the heat of summer. Where you end up depends on humidity, soil type, grass height, rainfall, and winds.

Mowing high you should have fewer weeds.

I've applied agricultural molasses at just about every strength and never seen any change to anything on the lawn. I like the idea of using molasses in general but don't look for big changes. I'm not sure there is enough research on molasses to know which one is better. I like less sulfur but I've never made a molasses choice based on sulfured or unsulfered.

Welcome to the forum! All the moderators are either organic or organic friendly. Did you see the Showcase on the home page? Most of those lawns are organic.

Oh and we want to see before and after pictures.

Wow! I didn't expect to receive such quick responses.

Dave, I do go all in when I try something new. It didn't take me long to buy into the idea of feeding the bugs in the soil.

snachs wrote: Are those #s totals or per 1000sq ft? I'm thinking it's total, but either way, from my experience you would see some impact already. I'll let the experts chime in but that is a lot of molasses (especially if per K) and that might be binding some of your nitrogen.

All the application #s are the total amount applied to approximately 2200 sq ft.

Thanks for the quick responses. I'll try to get some pictures up tonight or tomorrow.

Jason

Wow! I didn't expect to receive such quick responses.

Jason, don't trust them. They just want your lawn pictures.

Is there a label that says how much sugar is in the molasses you used?

I got a gallon with from the feed store with no label or anything they just put it in a old milk jug. After trying it once I quickly became suspicious of if and tasted a very small amount. It tasted terrible, so I called the store to get more info. Turns out there is almost no sugar in it. Just a few vitamins mostly brown sludge.

eric0919 wrote:Is there a label that says how much sugar is in the molasses you used?

I got a gallon with from the feed store with no label or anything they just put it in a old milk jug. After trying it once I quickly became suspicious of if and tasted a very small amount. It tasted terrible, so I called the store to get more info. Turns out there is almost no sugar in it. Just a few vitamins mostly brown sludge.

Well, the sucrose is pretty much crystallized in blackstrap (it's the third extraction), it does taste kind of nasty (to my tongue, a bit bitter and dark with a metallic overtone), but still contains a great amount of sugar. You just don't respond as well to the bound-up sugars, and the other things in it tend to mask the sweet flavor.

Oh, and yeah, we really just want photos...

Here are some pictures from this morning. It's covered in dew and slightly foggy out from the 1/5" of rain we had the night before.

2nd photo shows my lawn has 4 sections split by sidewalks. Left of the sidewalk parallel to the street is bermuda. You can see it doesn't grow well in the area near the sidewalk perpendicular to the street. The St. Augustine on the bottom right of the photo has always been in great shape. Thick, tall, and grows fast. The St. Augustine on the other side of the sidewalk is thin but probably b/c of the trees (live oak, red oak and pecan) but I had them trimmed a lot 2 weeks ago so hopefully it will help get more sunlight on the grass.

This 1st photo is a better picture of how thin my St. Augustine is in spots. This is the worst spot in my yard. It improves as you get further away from this section. I've been dumping my coffee grounds in this area but it's only 3 tbsps of coffee grounds a day.

The 3rd photo is a weed in my bermuda that I've had the past 2 years (that's when I moved in) and it looks like it's coming back again this year. I've sprayed it with some broad leaf weed killer that takes care of it temporarily but not for good. Since I decided to try organics this year I might be stuck with pulling this weed all summer. It spreads low underneath the bermuda. Any thoughts? There are several other weeds in the bermuda as well but I didn't want to post too many pictures at once.

My neighbors always compliment me on my yard but I'm not satisfied yet. They're just jealous b/c all they have are weeds. I enjoy any constructive criticism you have.

Don't feel that we're ignoring you. We like what you're doing and enjoy the lessons, but the crowd around here tonight seems to be all northerners. The southern/TX crowd was busy around lunchtime today. I'm sure that they'll have lots to say and maybe advice too.

Hope you don't mind if we just enjoy your postings...

JCM,
Are you wanting to keep both bermuda and St. Augustine, or do you plan to migrate all of the lawn to one or the other?

I ask because the cultural requirements of the two grasses are different. For St. Augustine to dominate the weeds, it should be mowed high. Bermuda gets scraggly when mowed high and needs to be cut short (as in reel short) to get the carpeting effect that will prevent weeds from coming up.

The St. Augustine will better tolerate the shade (though you've noticed it does better with more sun). Bermuda (with a few specialty-hybrid selections) doesn't like shade.

Bermuda and St. Augustine also vary in heat and cold tolerance. The increased soil temperatures in the hell strip might be better handled by the Bermuda, but I don't know how big a difference there really is.
There is an important difference in drought tolerance. If you stop watering the Bermuda and it gets hot, the grass just goes brown and waits for water to start growing again. If you stop watering St. Augustine during a hot, dry spell, it also goes brown - but it doesn't come back. This is something to consider during water restrictions.

Morph already mentioned that Bermuda likes lots of nitrogen. If you're going organic, it means putting down lots of grains. Soybean would be best here for its high protein/nitrogen content, but I can't remember the availability of SBM when I lived up there. It seems that a lot of weeds get scraggly with excess growth from the extra N, so that helps get rid of them when you come in and lop them off with a close mow.

But don't listen much to me - all I know is what I read on the internet. Texas A&M & Florida A&M have some good resources regarding the care of St. Augustine turf. For Bermuda, there's always TW's Bermuda Bible.

Thanks for your response.

I have thought about laying some SA sod in the Bermuda section but I didn't want to put in that effort. If it becomes too much of a hassle to raise and lower my 22" Toro rotary mower blade then I'll consider it. In the past I kept my blade at the same height which may have been mistake #1.

I haven't been able to find a feed store in the area with SBM in stock but the store I go to will special order it for me and I think it was $15 for 50#s.

jason

jcmdallas wrote:I have thought about laying some SA sod in the Bermuda section but I didn't want to put in that effort. If it becomes too much of a hassle to raise and lower my 22" Toro rotary mower blade then I'll consider it.

Most all of the 'renovation' talk is held on the northern turf forum, but some aspects would hold here. If you chose to replace the Bermuda, first you have to kill it, and kill it good. That means glyphosate while it's growing - not after it goes dormant in a hot, dry summer (not as big a problem if you have plenty of water). Then you need enough time for the St. Augustine to get established before cold weather hits - it wants warm weather to grow. You could just plant plugs or runners and wait for them to fill in, but that might take a year.

I've never tried it myself. I do have a spot of invading Bermuda in the backyard I'd like to try it on though. Hmmmmm....

JCM, what garden center are you going to? I haven't found SBM anywhere. I might be willing to drive to Dallas if it can be special ordered somewhere.

I go to Rocking Y Feed & Pet. Give him a call. He's very helpful.

14026 N. Stemmons Frwy • Suite 200 • Farmers Branch, TX 75234 • Phone 972-247-2681

I'm going back and forth between this topic and your soil test results. In looking at your pictures again I have some questions.

Has the grass in the first pic grown up taller yet? Or started to fill in? If not I'm going to suggest hitting it hard with corn meal and milk spray to eliminate the possibility of a disease. Those are about the only two materials you have not already used Hard means 20 pounds per 1,000 or more. For milk go to 3 ounces over that area. Does that area get adequate water?

Re your weed: Could it be field bindweed?

I haven't seen that weed flower in the 2 summers I've lived here. I'll see if I can get a better picture from my neighbors weed farm.

That area of no growth has never been a good grower. I'll put a container down the next time I water to see how much it actually gets. It could very well be that the sprinklers don't hit that area enough.

If the water comes out okay, you might want to test that soil separately. I have a spot where I set up the saw to cut wood for my daughters' swing set. The wood was treated lumber and nothing has grown there for about 10 years. A soil test would show NPK but not the biological poisons (arsenic in the case of treated lumber).

Another consideration is shade. If that is the north side of the house and is close to the house, it could be that no grass is going to do well there. You might consider a grassy looking ground cover like dwarf mondo grass. It spreads slowly but is very persistent.

Have you had a new roof installed and might you get runoff from the roof onto that area?

And what color car do you drive? (really grasping at straws, now!)

Concerning Texas Plant & Soil Lab: Yes, after the old owner died in Nov. 2008, the key analytical instrument broke at the end of Jan 2009 and was not repaired until the new owner came in April. Since then, the lab gets reports back to clients within three to five working days after receipt of sample, by E-Mail - longer if the reports must be printed and mailed by postal mail.

Yes, the tests cost more than university tests, as your tax dollars are not subsidizing TPSL's operation. Also, the samples are carefully dried (so as not to change the pH) and weighed (as opposed to automated volumetric dispensing, as most every other lab does). The lab's CO2 Extraction Method Test is extremely labor-intensive, as at best, it can be automated only to a very limited extent. The CO2 Method is used because it duplicates the way roots take up nutrients. In Nature, the CO2 exuded by plant roots combines with the moisture in the soil to form very weak Carbonic Acid.

Other labs most often use a strong acid total nutrients extraction method show the total nutrient content of the soil, whether available to the plant or not. This explains why TPSL's numbers come back usually very much lower than those presented by another lab on the same sample. What good does it do to report nutrient compounds that the plant can't touch, except to give misleading and irrelevant information? The CO2 Test is THE most accurate method in the industry. While TPSL tests are more expensive than university tests, it is felt that you get much better information and value for your money with TPSL.

For the lawn/beds/garden/tree folks, the lab offers two tests: the Basic Fertilizer/Soil nutrients Test which assays N, P, K and Ca. This is recommended for nominally healthy lawns, etc. where there are no apparent problems.

If you've been having university tests done, or had no soil test performed, the lab recommends that you start with the Comprehensive CO2 Extraction Test. This establishes a baseline from which to proceed. It is the lab's standard test for commercial growers. It detects 95% of nutritional problems and includes the major micronutrients, Cu, Fe, Mn and Zn. The micronutrients are essential for the plants' ability to ward off diseases, among many other things - and they can be the most rapidly depleted or tied-up in some soils. This test identifies profound soil nutritional problems and salt buildup. This test is especially recommended for problem areas - where things don't grow well or at all.

TPSL particularly appreciates the opportunity to solve problems.

The Comprehensive report covers more things than many homeowners are likely to think there is to know. However, each report includes an extensive, specific and detailed set of recommendations and explanations of generally three to five pages. Each report is custom-generated for each sample, given the soil, the plants and the fertilization practice. The lab also offers plant, water, compost and heavy metals analysis.

I hope this answers the speculations and questions about TPSL and its approach.