Hey all,

Got off the phone with the folks out at SRO. I had some questions about the new RTF fescues and their spreading behavior...

Some interesting info....

First -- our expectations... The guy made specific reference to some marketing copy from an un-named competitor.... He said realistic expectations are important: It isn't a Bermuda... Not even a KBG for spreading....

He said that the ones they are working on do spread with Rhizomes and tiller more aggressively than standard TTTF.... but it's still TTTF -- it won't fill in 12" diameter holes with any sort of speed you would expect to see out of a Bluegrass.... He said that it is far more noticable during the Spring Green-up phase.. where they look kinda sparse during the winter dormancy... and then all of a sudden green up in areas that didn't look like they had grass....

An interesting tidbit was that they seem to spread more aggressively as they get taller and taller -- he said that you can find quite large rhizomes coming out of their tall, unmowed 8"-10" tall "Momma" Seed plants... Easily 12+ inches long... but he said you don't find nearly the same behavior when they are mowed.. They only make short rhizomes when cut at normal mowing heights... and far less when mowed short... Almost exactly the opposite of spreading behavior in "Normal" spreading turf grass -- where cutting them shorter pushes them towards Spreading...

I also asked about input requirements to stimulate Rhizome behavior.. He indicated that there was a good possibility that they would produce more rhizomes under higher input than with lower input, but that they hadn't really studied it to know for certain.

Does this sound basically inline with you guys experience with these?

Thanks

I can probably guess at the unnamed competitor. If I'm right, I contacted somebody there about 5 years ago or so (whenever the product first started showing up on store shelves) and he had the same lament about the marketing materials---that they gave people unrealistic expectations.

It's interesting about the tall grass leading to longer rhizomes. I've read about mowing to encourage spreading, but to be honest, usually when I read that, it's used in conjunction with encouraging spreading via tillers rather than rhizomes.

Sounds probable. The marketing hype doesn't live up to the reality, per se, but it does deliver better than older cultivars.

TTTF just doesn't have the genes for rhizome production like KBG has, and until we can figure out how to insert the sequence into it, it won't.

Mowing longer/shorter--dunno. I have zip experience with TTTF. My KBG regularly produces foot-long rhizomes mowed at 3 1/4", and many are probably longer. I only see the ones that start to enter the gardens or invade the neighbors' lawns.

I dormant seeded some Firecracker LS this past winter. I bought it more for its high ntep ratings than its spreading. It does tiller a lot bit my overseed is too new to tell. And its crispy from yhis drought anyway. Tiemco has a small monostand of Fitecracker LS...maybe he will share his experiences. Ive also heard that spreading is more prominent in lighter soils...not the concrete I call soil.

By the way, there is also a spreading PRG on the market that is getting some good press. It spreads via stolons though so soil texture wont be an issue.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

I have some Vigoro RTF fescue bought from HD. I used it for the mini reno and
some over seeding earlier in the spring. Haven't see it spread yet. It is still too
early to tell, but it is definitely not Bermuda grass for sure.

My Firecracker LS monostand suffered some snow mold death, small patches, so instead of seeding those areas this spring I decided to see how well it will fill in if left alone. One area is completely filled, but it's more from lateral tillering. It's weird how this stuff grows, if it is not crowded the blades are thicker than when it is crowded. I do see a few single grass blades in the bare patches, but again it's still pretty young, and I expect this fall there will be more spreading. I will post some pics later this weekend.

I would definately appreciate some pix...

Thanks

John

Can you take some pictures of that Firecracker? I would like to see it next to some KBG on a ruler.

Sure, will probably do it tomorrow, today was devoted to doing as little as possible.

Here are the Firecracker LS pics as promised. They were taken this morning. The grass was planted on 9/3/09, at the highest seeding rate, close to 10 lbs./1000. It last received fertilizer on 4/24/09. It gets 3 hours of sun a day.
Here is the monostand. It has great color for not receiving any nitrogen in the past four months.

This is the tip of the triangle. There was a bare patch this spring due to snow mold. It is now completely filled, but it's mainly due to lateral tillering. Notice how the blades are pretty wide here. Seems like they widen out if given a lot of space:

In this pic I am pointing to what I believe to be a plant spread via rhizome:

Another example of thick blades due to having space (yes I am aware of the brown tips, but it was cut with a sharp blade. They turn brown 15 minutes after cutting, still working on that.):

This is a shot of grass in more crowded areas, you can see how the blades are much finer where the density is higher:

Here is a comparison of all the blade sizes in the stand. The one on the left is an eight of an inch wide:

As you can see there is a lot of variation in the blade widths of this TTTF. The width of the blades of grass bordering the street is also wider than the rest of the lawn. The widest blade pictured is 1/8th of an inch.

Mmmmm pretty!

That stuff really is beautiful.

What is your mowing height? Looks like around 2"

It is pretty nice stuff, not KBG nice, but TF nice. I wish it was a consistent width throughout, but it is only noticeable up close. I keep it at 3" most of the year. I mowed it about a week ago, it's not growing too much in this heat, probably won't mow for a few more days.

I was reading through the K-state study more carefully....
They subscribe to NTEP Schedule B -- which is 2 lbs Nitrogen/year....
In this study, they talked about preparing the bed only with Milorganite to 1lb nitrogen before planting (So about 20 lbs/1,000 sq-ft)...

I wonder if they just don't have enough Nitrogen.... and especially not enough nitrogen when it's really hitting it's growth in the Fall and early spring.....

The high quantity of Iron and Calcium will certainly help with Color.. and the low N input helps with Brown Patch in summer... but I can't help but wonder if it just doesn't have enough nitrogen to really grow shoots during prime growth seasons..

Thanks

John

So in this study there was no supplemental nitrogen applied at the appropriate times? Seems a bit odd to me. My grass gets the appropriate amount at the right times, so it shouldn't be an issue for me. I would love a link to this study.

Is that photo Firecracker?

Yup, 100% Firecracker LS (well probably 98% Firecracker LS, 2% poa annua)

Here's the link...
Click here for more information

Just re-read it, but I think I got my original math wrong... I was thinking 1 lbs N per year... They actually used 2 lbs per year and applied it ALL in September.

It says they applied Milorganite to provide Nitrogen at a rate of 98kg/Hectare at seeding -- That's 2 lbs/1,000 sq-ft.... in September.. and then fertilized again each September at the same rate....

I guess in theory, it meets NTEP Schedule B... 2 lbs nitrogen is 2 lbs nitrogen....

But... In reality -- Would you expect good Cool season grass performance if you ONLY use Milorganite... and then ONLY apply 1 shot per year in September?

Thanks

John

Just read through it briefly. Seems like the Milorganite was used in lieu of starter fertilizer, but after that urea was used:

"Nitrogen from urea (46-0-0) was applied at 49 kg ha-2 in November 2005, May, September, and November 2006, and May and September 2007."

It's a good study, but it is five years old, and the culitvars tested are the first RTF's developed, I would think the latest ones are better spreaders, but that remains to be seen. Seems like regular tall fescue spreads just as well as the early RTF's. Also notice how long the plots were followed. While TF establishes much faster than KBG, it seems like the ability to spread takes TF much longer than KBG and is nowhere as fast. My Firecracker LS is only about 9 months old, so I don't think its spreading has really started. I expect this fall to see more, and by fall 2011 it should be hitting it's stride.

I looked through that paper 4 times and never found the mention of Urea until you pointed it out.....

tiemco,

That firecracker LS sure looks beautiful. I order my seed mix from SeedSuperStore already, they
have firecracker and faith sell in small quantities. I have small lawn compare to others here. I only
need 15 pounds or so, the price markup is not too bad.