I live in Southwest Kentucky (Paducah to be exact) and this year I'd like to improve the yard some. I can upload a picture if that would help, but the main problems seems to be...

Front Yard - A big Oak tree shades most of the yard. Otherwise it drains OK and all that, mainly shade and whatever pH/nutrition issues you have with leaves. I like to mulch once or twice in the Fall but mainly we bag leaves every couple weeks or so.

Back Yard - We have one big Oak tree, and our neighbor has one that provides extra shade. Morning sun is about all the back yard gets. Also, when it rains, the back half of the yard stays moist for 2 or 3 days. Drainage is clearly an issue. Also, under the Oak tree, we have a healthy stand of moss.

From what I've read, without further guidance I would do a soil sample at the local Extension Office, lime and fertilize accordingly, and try to get new growth established. Perhaps a mix of tall fescue and clover. But maybe those aren't good choices for grass.

We do have hot, dry spells (95 degrees, no rain for 2-3 weeks is not unusual) during the summer, but we can water some if we need to.

I really don't know, I may not be in the correct "Season Grass" sub-forum. Any help is appreciated, Thanks!

If you want to grow grass, then heavy shade is not your friend. How many hours of sun does your front and back yard get on average, from spring to fall, and when does it receive it (morning, noon, pm, etc)?

tiemco wrote:If you want to grow grass, then heavy shade is not your friend. How many hours of sun does your front and back yard get on average, from spring to fall, and when does it receive it (morning, noon, pm, etc)?

About 3 good hours each day a little later in the morning. Maybe an hour mid-afternoon.

You can definitely tell a difference between the half of the yard further back that doesn't get as much sun and the part nearer the house that gets more. But even that is light sunlight because it's filtered through leaves. Soggy soil after heavy rains probably doesn't help much. But it's not near as bad as a couple yards down the street, we are actually pretty fortunate. Ours drains and dries up in a reasonable amount of time.

It's not a huge area so I wouldn't even mind doing plugs. I'll try to take a picture or two in the next couple days.

Ummmm, it "can" be done -- but that doesn't mean it's a recommended practice...

Three hours of sun is a bare, bare minimum.

I have many 60'- 80' Maples, Oaks, Beeches and Eastern Firs. I spend more hours on my lawn than most people spend sleeping per week, almost the Federal Budget in $$$$ for products, etc. I've been a Lawnaholic for 40 years. I've written well over 10,000 postings here and elsewhere on lawns.

And I still struggle mightily to keep it alive and doing OK. Powdery Mildew attacks, thinning and trying to keep the soil moist (a single mature tree can use 40,000 gallons a year, pulled from the soil). Overseeding regularly is just part of my life.

So, the big question: "How dedicated are you to making this happen?".

PS: there is no magic in plugs.

Just a comment. If you want the the best possible help from the good people on this board, get your soil tested at Logan Labs. They test more things than most extension offices and we are used to interpreting them. If you do use a local extension office we can still help but it can be a crap shoot.

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Let me touch on something that others did not. You mention that your front has good drainage, but your back...not so much. I would take those leaves that you bag in the front and start mulching them in the back. Regardless of PH, the leaves will help your soil structure and you'll hear us say all the time, "It's all about the soil" and this is what brings you to getting a soil test.

As far as grass is concerned, you are in a tough situation. The fescues do well in shade, but I don't know how well it would do in dense shade. No doubt the fine fescues would do the best, but when the heat comes, it makes it a struggle to keep those grasses from going dormant and turning brown. The only consolation is that the shade might actually help those grasses from not being hit as hard. I have fine fescue in the backyard. In the summer, it goes dormant pretty fast, but there is a portion under the tree that stays pretty greenish.

Pictures would be nice and it will give the experts an idea of your shade issues. With the way you are describing it though, I'm thinking Fine Fescues if you are thinking about renovating. KBG would really struggle and Tiemco can weigh in on the Tall Fescue as he has it for his front which is a shady area (not his actual location...just his front yard)

Yup, tall fescue can survive on a few hours of sun. My front yard has areas that only get 3 hours of morning sun and TTTF does fine in those areas, and TTTF is the preferred cool season grass in the transition zone. It might be helpful to remove the lowest limbs on your trees to get more light in the morning. It's something you can do yourself if they are low enough and won't really take much away from the tree. I would check out the NTEP shade studies for TTTF as some cultivars do much better than others in heavy shade (Click here for more information). The study was done in Carbondale IL, which is only about 70 miles from you, so you could even visit if you become a true lawn nut. Here is what Dr. Ken Diesburg said about the site of the shade study:

"My shade trials are completely shaded, normally. The big wind of May 8, 2009, felled a few trees in the tall fescue shade trial. So two patches of sunlight are making their way across the trial as the canopy heals, adding error to the trial. Even so, larger LSDs should reflect the increase in error. The typical irradiance intensity in my trials is 300 to 400 micro-moles per meter-squared-second, which is at the lower irradiance threshold for complete photosynthesis by cool-season grasses such as tall fescue. In a nut-shell, the shade is strong.I mow at a 3-inch clip; fertilize 2 to 3 lb N/1000 sq ft/year; irrigate only to prevent summer dormancy. A post-emergent herbicide is applied only in the case where broadleaf weeds might threaten to ruin the data. The tall fescue trial received two applications over the past four years."

Here are a couple pictures of the front yard. Imagine there being a large tree above it, with lots of leaves in the summer which block sun for most part of the day.

Based on consultation (chatting with) my wife, we estimate it gets 2-3 hours of early morning sun and maybe 2-3 hours mid afternoon sun. Our neighbor has a tree too so together all the trees block a good bit of sun.






there's a few leaves there, and that area that looks like a trench was dug, last fall we had a sump pump put in crawlspace, and that's where they laid the 2" pipe for the outlet out towards the sidewalk.

and here's the back yard. Further back towards the purple shed, that half of yard gets more shade and soil stays wet a couple days after rain. I hope you can see the moss and kinda judge what I need here. My wife moved in here 5 years ago, I moved in last summer. She said the previous owners let the leaves build up year after year towards the back. Took her a long time to get it cleaned up.

Sunlight - 2 or 3 hours in the morning, and my wife says she's sure it gets about 2 or 3 hours in afternoon. So probably 5 hours.

andy10917 wrote:Ummmm, it "can" be done -- but that doesn't mean it's a recommended practice...

Three hours of sun is a bare, bare minimum.

I have many 60'- 80' Maples, Oaks, Beeches and Eastern Firs. I spend more hours on my lawn than most people spend sleeping per week, almost the Federal Budget in $$$$ for products, etc. I've been a Lawnaholic for 40 years. I've written well over 10,000 postings here and elsewhere on lawns.

And I still struggle mightily to keep it alive and doing OK. Powdery Mildew attacks, thinning and trying to keep the soil moist (a single mature tree can use 40,000 gallons a year, pulled from the soil). Overseeding regularly is just part of my life.

So, the big question: "How dedicated are you to making this happen?".

PS: there is no magic in plugs.

Hey I appreciate it.

For your question, I guess I just want it to be a noticeable improvement. I have a faucet on/off timer thing from my previous house and water isn't too high here, so I can water if I need to. I don't want "yard of the month" just an improvement, where you can look out in the evening while grilling something and say "this yard ain't too bad at all. I like it."

I looked at your pictures on a large monitor in extreme close-up and I see moss and other items. I think that your problems are most-likely not limited to Shade.
good soil test
I think that you need to start with the basics: a good soil test from Logan Labs or UMASS, an understanding that 75% of good lawn care is proper mowing and irrigation, etc.

Let's see what the shape of the soil is - you can grow bad grass on good soil but never good grass on bad soil.

andy10917 wrote:I looked at your pictures on a large monitor in extreme close-up and I see moss and other items. I think that your problems are most-likely not limited to Shade.
good soil test
I think that you need to start with the basics: a good soil test from Logan Labs or UMASS, an understanding that 75% of good lawn care is proper mowing and irrigation, etc.

Let's see what the shape of the soil is - you can grow bad grass on good soil but never good grass on bad soil.

Andy - do copious amounts of organic matter deter moss? In areas of the yard where I have gardens and have added lots of OM, I don't have moss. I also don't have any in the lawn in the back where i have fescue and have added a leafgro topdressing the past two years. However, my neighbor - just on the other side of my chain link fence - has moss in her lawn. She limes more often than I do, has the yard core aerated in the fall and mulch mows her grass, but she picks up every leaf and twig that falls on the lawn and piles them up in an area in the back. The areas that I do have moss (some in sun and some in shade) are areas where soil (sand) hasn't been amended or even had leaves mulched on top. Looking over the fence, there is moss growing in her lawn only a few inches from mine. Just got me wondering if perhaps the leaves I mulched up and leafgro I put put down might be making the difference.

I don't know if this answers you question directly, but it is my strong opinion about Moss.

Moss is a symptom. It is generally a symptom that so many things are wrong that grass simply cannot thrive. Moss is the bottom of the barrel amongst the lawn heirarchy - it means nothing else can make it there, for whatever reason(s). Bad pH, poor nutrition, too much shade and mechanical compaction are generally the big offenders - most often in combination.

I suspect that your OM supplementation is related, but not the only reason your's is better than your neighbor's. People that supplement OM most often pay more attention to ALL the little details.

andy10917 wrote:I looked at your pictures on a large monitor in extreme close-up and I see moss and other items. I think that your problems are most-likely not limited to Shade.
good soil test
I think that you need to start with the basics: a good soil test from Logan Labs or UMASS, an understanding that 75% of good lawn care is proper mowing and irrigation, etc.

Let's see what the shape of the soil is - you can grow bad grass on good soil but never good grass on bad soil.

Thanks a lot, Andy.

Do I just look online for Logan Labs? I guess they send me a sample kit and I send the samples back? I'll check them out this week.

Also, a friend (who knows more than I do but probably less than you do) said I might look into getting Creeping Centipede grass. I've seen it mentioned somewhere in an article but I was hoping for a second opinion on that.

This thread might be more appropriate in the "Lawn Renovations" area, but I guess this is fine.

You're not doing a Renovation or posting in that area until you are certified insane and realize how much work a Renovation is. Then we tell you that you wait until late August (although the work starts MUCH earlier).

Read the article "Soil Management Part 1" in the articles area for sampling info. Here's a link for Logan Labs. The standard test is fine.

$20, that's not bad at all. OK Thanks!

"Also, a friend (who knows more than I do but probably less than you do) said I might look into getting Creeping Centipede grass. I've seen it mentioned somewhere in an article but I was hoping for a second opinion on that. "

Forget about that. Centipede has poor shade tolerance, and generally does better in more southern locations where hard freezes aren't likely.

tiemco wrote:Forget about that. Centipede has poor shade tolerance, and generally does better in more southern locations where hard freezes aren't likely.

OK thanks Tiemco

I've contacted Logan and so the soil test kit is on the way and I'll post when I get results. Also, regarding low limbs on the tree, they're all pretty high up. We do need to have some large dangling limbs higher up cut this spring. My neighbor has some smaller trees that I would like to make disappear, but there's not much I can do about that. On the other hand, they do help with privacy.

Logan Labs should receive my sample today or tomorrow and I'll post the results when I receive them.